New project/new sight

[archorn]

Thanks. length is not all too important. the most important was the diameter.

[chicago]

[Chicago's posse here:

We ran back down and took that measurement. It is 0.762 inches. From tip to the point the slope starts on the barrel. We just love measuring tips. It gave us an excuse and saves the old man four more flights. Thank goodness he hasn't moved it to the underground bunker yet:

dl.dropbox.com/u/32074185/fun%20pix/compress%20lair.jpg

Oh and archorn, length does matter, trust us!

Chicago's posse out]

[archorn]

Thanks again. Feels like I walked right into that one
Nice bunker.

[chicago]

[ Chicago's posse here:

Chicago is a little grumpy right now. He just got his long awaited red dot sight from Hawke, a second hawke sight. It sucks, its nothing like his Hawke XB30.

He's sending the 3 reticule (20, 30 and 40 yard) back tomorrow. This sight was for his mp7 for cqb scenerios or speedball. Yes, the old man still plays speedball. He can still get small really fast, he just doesn't get up very fast and he never belly slides anymore. If you want a blow by blow go to the Tiberius Forum thread.

Chicago's posse out] [ Oh, sorry, we wanted to say hi to skully, wolfen, coralnerd, and of course a special shout out to vortex. Major, you won't mind if we don't single you out too. There has been enough questions about Charlene's sexual orientation!]

[chicago]

Any one have any suggestions for a X1 sight that is supposed to be for crossbows? Right now, I have my eye on one of the tritons.

And, please PM me if you have questions on Charlene's sexual orientation. This morning when I woke up she was north to south!

[chicago]

OK, this mourning, she was east to west. See what I mean her orientation is all over the place. Now that we've discussed orientation, I can tell you she's a female too. Man, she is definately female!

[chicago]

Back on topic, if there was one:

I sent back the Hawke 3D (3 red dot) crossbow scope. Now looking to get a real Eotech 512. My mp7 is just not going to be happy til I get her one. But, that's big bucks for me; else the silent knight would already being wearing one.

There are other sights like the Hawke 3D, including one or two from TruGlow that looks really nice (similar) for around the same price. I've seen others too; like there's one China manufacture that is making them all with slightly different lens and caps but same internals to be sold by multiple manufacturers here in the States. If anyone has used one of the truglo's, please jump in here they claim they are new on the Truglo web site specifically for crossbows, Triton series. But, I really, truly am concerned they are all the same piece of crap that the Hawke was so I probably won't get one.

Now, I'm even more perplexed cause I feel weird mounting a full scope on an MP7. But, I love my Hawke XB30 and the new dimension it has brought to my game.

There were two more crossbow scopes I've really wanted to try. The Leupold/leatherwood crossbow scope and the Redfield Revenge both with ranger finders. They discontinued making the leatherwood and so far, I haven't been able to find one (although, there was this guy who claimed to have some still new in box but he only had an email address and he never responded back.). The Redfield Revenge sounds real interesting but won't be available til the end of July.

The final one I'm interested in does not do range finding. Something I definitely use if available. It is a Nikon crossbow scope called the Bolt. Claims the best light transmission and it has the Nikon name, is smaller than the other two (12-13 inches versus 8) and does have the multi-reticule drops.

So, do I wait for revenge or spend boque bucks on a holo that would look great and work well on the MP7?

Any serious recommendation on what to do. Oh, the scopes cost a little less than my beloved Hawke XB30 and the NIKON is just over $100 depending on which week you look at it on Amazon. While right now I can get a genuine Eotech from a reputable us dealer new for $365 shipped.

Dilemma! Money, looks, functionality, purpose...The scopes except the Nikon are like only $100 less than the Eotech. I think I answered my own question finally. Thanks everyone!

[Girls, do we have an money left in petty cash? What about the safe?]

[trinity]

I have a T9 that I keep short and light. Long bow stock, short barrel, APR, optic, and a tactical grip. For years,the optic was an ATN digital open red dot. I love the sight. About two years ago, I was in a scenario game called Black Hawk Down. It had a village (HQ) at the edge of the boundary that we controlled. The ground around it was flat and open for about 250 feet.

The attacking team was intentionally given twice as many players as the defenders. The game was a blast and perfect for the two of us using first strikes. Perfect that is until right near the end of the day when we inexplicably lost a lot of players off the field. The two of us shot every first strike round we had between us, swapping loaded magazines as we fought. When our pistols finally ran dry they overran us en mass. It was a full auto game and they were frustrated. I have never been so overshot as I was then. As a result, my ATN took a lot of point blank hits. It developed a short that I just couldn't fix completely.

Until I bought the Hawke XB30, I had been hunting for something fast and durable. I have used a lot of sights and I am familiar with the Eotech. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that kind money for a paintball gun sight, but i never found another red dot I was happy with either. In my opinion, nearly every other red dot sight is a compromise done to save money. They are built like a tank. It will almost certainly be the last CQB sight you have to buy. In other words, if you can afford it, do it.

[DJmatt123]

The thing that confuses me here is that all the sights that you are wanting are rangefinding and crossbow multi point sights which makes sense for the first strikes and are all cheaper than the eotech but you are thinking about getting the eotech instead. I have a chinese eotech on my marker and I love it and for regular paintball range the paralex doesn't make much of a difference most of the time. From the sounds of it, you would be best to go with what you say works so good and save the extra money, get another Hawke.....

[chicago]

Well, logic (and maybe maturity) got the better of me. I was downstairs in the basement for some reason. When I was done, I walked over to the sleeping silent knight and grabbed her. I pulled off the magul MBus system and stuck my Chinese fake Eotech back on her. Put a bore sight on and checked the windage on the fake Eotech. Minor adjust. She's fine again.

Don't know what I've been thinking lately. Probably the weather and no paintball has been rotting what's left of my brain. Don't worry didn't spend the $365 on an EOTech and didn't buy anything else. Did consider a second Hawke XB30 (didn't mount it - cause I'm already to go - all zeroed on the T9.1). The XB30 takes up the entire top of the MP7 and then some; probably a little as Allu would say "probably a little over the top."

Thanks guys for putting up with me.

[trinity]

I understand the confusion concerning the crossbow sights and the Eotech. To my way of thinking this comes down to exactly how far away you are going to be shooting for the majority of your shots on a mission or in a given field situation. If I am in an urban setting (and I try never to do that) or in really thick cover where the range is 100 feet or less then I want something that is very short, comes on point quickly, and sends paint (read first strikes) right to where the reticle says they are supposed to go. I can keep both eyes open and watch everything in front of me. Speed on target trumps everything in those kinds of fights provided you hit what you're aiming at. In those situations the red dot is king and in my opinion the Eotech is the king of red dots. I just can't write that check though.

[chicago]

Trinity, you hit the nail on the head. I love playing woodsball. But, things do get over grown this time a year and your field of vision/opportunity gets limited (this varies game to game on good fields). I know your setup from your blog. You are in between my two setups I have but, it is a tight fit. And, it appears we both travel light and with no embellishments (nothing extra on the markers).

Just as you don't like remote, I don't enjoy a long barrel. Too many places to get caught and its sometimes awkward to shoot from certain positions. That's why I have my Mp7 as well. When I find a good blind and an open area, I own it with my rifle. But, that is not always what the field or opportunity presents. So, I'm just crazy enough to stay tight and end up going right up the middle in dense brush or when enemy positions dictate. So, that is where the silent knight, my MP7 and fake EOtech comes in handy. Been in some great fire fights.

I was just so impressed with how the Hawke XB30 scope on my deaf leopard (t9.1) gave me such precise striking power at multiple distances that I wanted the same precision for my silent knight as well. In an extreme and close fire fight, it will sometimes take me two even three first strikes to hit a target just 30 meters or less away (maybe its the adrenaline). I wanted the same relaxed one shot one kill I would get at 50 meters and above (sometimes) using the hawke; but, what I think I hear you saying is that's just the difference in the "mission and the field situation."

I guess I have to admit I'm an accuracy nut and I was hoping a better cqb sight would increase my shooting accuracy at short range as the Hawke XB30 did for paintball long range. Here's the best way to clarify this and give it a different perspective. Now, in a 30 minute game with my rifle and finely tuned scope, I go thru 1 or 2 magazines of first strikes and can take out 7-9 people in a good game. During the same 30 minute game with my fake Eotech, I go thru 5-6 magazines with the MP7 but may be the same number of enemy.

In the past, I've blamed that on myself for the missed shots (which is still probably true most of the time). But, now with the increased clarity and ranging in the Hawke), I feel that part of my "improvement" came from the scope. Am I all wet here? Do you get what I'm saying? Would a real EOtech, $365 US, improve my game (hence my accuracy); or is a cheap knock off just as good in CQB? I'm almost tempted to do the testing...Certainly the player and the mind are the greatest weapons; but, I think having the best equipment helps.

[DJmatt123]

I think that the main difference you'll notice between the real and fake eotechs is going to depend on how consistent you hold your marker and if you pay attention to trying to center the crosshairs in the window. I believe you posted about the paralex a while back. I know that when the crosshairs are not in the center of the window that my shot's are going to be off so I just try and pay attention to that. I also block off the far end of the sight for a few reasons. First is I have a center feed tube that sits right in front of it and I couldn't see thru it if I wanted to, next is that it protects the sight from getting shot from the front, and finally it forces me to keep both eyes open so I don't narrow my field of vision as much, you just look at the target with your dominate eye and super-impose the crosshairs on the target with your other eye.

[trinity]

It's funny I expected this thread to go in a different direction. In the shooting world there is an ongoing, very intense argument about whether an Aimpoint or Eotech is the better sight. Or maybe calling me to task for calling the Eotech a red-dot sight when technically it's a holographic sight.

I have to disagree somewhat with DJmatt's reply on the differences between using a fake Eotech and a real one. Before I get to why I disagree, I have to say I am more than a little surprised that he would spend $365 (or more) on one of the finest tactical sights in the world that employs a laser reticle and then block off one end of it because it sits behind a feed tube. Don't misunderstand what I am saying. I understand what you're doing. You're using a system called occluded sighting. If I remember correctly, H&K at one time designed a system to work specifically in that manner. In addition, the military teaches that if your Aimpoint or Eotech gets mud or debris on the objective eyepiece that the sight can still be used like this until you have a chance to clear the obstruction. I would think that in that case a knock-off would suit your purposes perfectly, especially if you are using regular paint.

A few years ago I actually used a red dot for awhile mounted in that manner because of a feed tube issue on a paintball gun with a top rail. I never got comfortable with it.

We didn't narrow down which Eotech you are talking about but, based on the price you mention, I think I know. In the end, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot anyway. The Eotech is a holographic weapon sight. It is rugged beyond belief and covered by a thick alloy shield.

I think it is the fastest red-dot sight and faster than the Aimpoint. I has a huge window and its reticule is amazing. That allows you to keep both eyes open and see the whole field in front of you without having to squint to see a crosshair at the end of a long tube. It is bright and clear and the reticule is completely visible even at low brightness settings. Instead of a simple red dot, it projects a 65 MOA circle with short lines (at 3, 6, and 9 o'clock) along with a tiny 1 MOA dot in the center. Only a laser is capable of that kind of precision.

In my experience, and I have found this true with a dozen different, higher-quality, red-dot sights, your head alignment behind the sight just doesn't matter a whole lot. If you can see the dot from any angle at all, your paint will hit the target or come very, very close. That's why I like these sights for close quarters.

How much parallax is there? Here is a video link that will give you some idea of the degree of parallax at a distance of eight feet. Notice as the shooter moves his head all around the edges of the Eotech the reticle never moves a whole lot from the peephole. Of course if you have the time, it's always better to center your reticle because then you will avoid any small accuracy error attributable to parallax.



Understand too, that if you put a magnifier on the Eotech it becomes a scope. Parallax and sight alignment then also become more of an issue. That's true of any sight with magnification.

I don't want to over complicate this but there are two kinds of parallax: optical parallax and the parallax created by the distance from the sight to the bore. The Eotech doesn't have much in the way of optical parallax. Most of the close-distance parallax error comes from the fact that we have to mount our sights so high above the barrel in order to see through them with a mask on.

What differences do I think you will see? Depending on the Eotech knock-off you are using and it's quality, maybe not much in the sense of accuracy. I think up-and-close combat shooting is probably impacted more by adrenaline in the shooter and all the motion that goes with shooting in a hurry while ducking rounds. It gets real easy to start slapping the trigger and jerking the gun around under those conditions.

Other than accuracy though, you will find that you won't have to worry about imprecise adjustments in your windage and elevation adjustments when you are trying to zero the sight. The image will be bright and clear from edge to edge. I find that cheaper red dots sometimes have fuzzy edges. Nor will it lose zero like the cheaper sights often do. You will probably also find that because of the laser in the real Eotech you won't get the same reticle brightness levels in a knock-off. Finally, I don't think you can buy a more durable red-dot sight.

Here is another video. It compares a fake Eotech and a real Eotech:



And lastly a video from a guy who mounts a very good Eotech knockoff on a real steel gun:




While I haven't yet been able to bring myself to pay for an Eotech for my Tiberius, I wouldn't have anything else on my own real steel guns. I am kind of hoping you won't buy the thing Chicago, because that will probably push me the extra distance to do likewise.

[Hitman4Hire]

Jul 1, 2012 17:34:09 GMT -5 trinity said:

In those situations the red dot is king and in my opinion the Eotech is the king of red dots. I just can't write that check though.

If you would like Eotech performance and quality without the Eotech price, I highly recommend SightMark brand. I use the Sightmark Ultra Dual Shot QD Reflex Sight - With Laser for all my CQB markers.





And the option to choose between 4 different reticle patterns...

[chicago]

Damn, now you guys went and did it. In the few short vids and your writeups (thanks by the way), you've kinda convinced me that I should get one, the 512 model is the one I can get fairly cheap right now.

The only joy I'll have (well probably not the only - girls when I'm done here, you can make me a nice breakfast - steak and eggs today like when we were in Rome) is having a real EOtech and knowing that I've probably pushed Trinity over the edge (esp. once I start detailed writeups about my experience with it).

Added to my own research, this thing is supposed to be a real babe magnet. I'm convinced it will improve my aim. Hell, with the cost of First Strikes, it will probably pay for itself in less than two years.

I can tell, this is my destiny because yesterday, I heard directly from Leatherwood and they still have some of their crossbow sights new in boxes and are selling them dirt cheap, I mean like around $69, really! If I'd already ordered the Leatherwood, that would have probably been it. But, now I'm thinking real EOtech. I'd order it online right now but that's still a big check to write. But, since I'm saving big bucks - by not getting the leatherwood and the First Strike rounds I would have used in the testing, it kinda brings down the cost of that EOTech to me even more. Like actually to the top of my limit but still...this is maddening!

[girls, those steaks smell great. Do we have any of the Bookers Bourbon left?]

[Allu]

Chichago;
congratulations, I'm really looking forward to your reviews, been considering it myself.
Also, if you find the time and motivation, put a thought on how using 1x magnification effects the time before you pull the trigger compared with a sight with more magnification, my thesis based on experience with the rk62 and rk95 (Finnish army standard assault rifle(more info here:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rk_62))
and my own scoped hunting rifles and different paintball markers is that i generally shoot allot faster with open sights.

This in itself is not a surprise, but when I look at the achieved accuracy, the faster shooting speed doesn't seem to affect my accuracy adversely in equal proportions as the speed increase.
My theory is that the added magnification makes me search and aim for a longer period of time to try to achieve a perfect shot, instead of just shooting when i got it on target.

I would be very interested in if someone else have had a similar experience.

When on the subject of shooting, does anyone have those moments when you pull the trigger and just "feel" that it was fired the correct way and will hit what you aim at, and if so, what causes the feeling.
I'm after the key to making most shots just "feel" right...

Trinity:
Speaking of the parallax induced by the sight offset, as I understand it (unless the sight is offsetted to a side) the error induced should only be in the vertical axis and thus be a range estimation factor. So if one experience these "parallax errors" i would suggest practicing range estimation or re zeroing on another distance.

[Allu]

My last post got me thinking about a basic ballistic phenomena that I'm afraid that I have overlooked


When one sights in a gun it should generally be done according to the green line and not the red, as I am afraid I have done with the tibby.

The reason for this is that you get two distances where your sight is zeroed, with the 7.62x39 round we had it at approximately 50m and 150 if I remember correctly. The different distances available depends on the ballistics of the projectile.

Now I'll have to dig up the awesome fs ballistic numbers that I have a vague memory that someone posted somewhere.

Please let me know what your experience for this is... boy do i feel stupid right now.

The reason for being overly explanatory in some regards is that a person who is unfamiliar with this could understand what we'r talking about, so I'm not by any means trying to be a smart ***.

[Allu]

Last two posts might have gone a bit offtopic sry bout that

[Allu]

Darn, can't seem to find the fs ballistics post, think it was a long discussion about a dude that had done some extensive testing...if anyone remembers of the bat, some pointers would be appreciated