|
|
Post by chicago on Apr 7, 2012 16:30:15 GMT -5
I've been working on a top secret project now for a couple weeks but did not want to say anything til I knew it appeared to work. After reselling my .1 extensions (that were not ready for prime time - but to each his own). Some of you are so excited and say they are functional for you - but, I'm not here to beat a dead horse. I'm just wanting to point out I had paintball cash to burn! So, what's the point Chicago, get on with it. So, I'm here to tell you about crossbow sights. I've always loved my fake eotechs and they've served me well. But, I always wanted to try a magnified scope. But, I know the scopes out there (I believe this is true for the Tiberiuis scope as well) are made for real firearms, not paintball.) Hence the adjustable risers, shimming and guess work arching your shots just like with real paint! However, browsing the internet while looking for "marker porn," I came across this crossbow sight. As I was following another link, the last words that caught my eye was "300 fps." OMG, that's relatively paintball speeds." So, I went back to the sight and read more. Having worked my first job at Fermilab in Batavia, Illinios - which used to be the highest energy accelerator in the world. I knew that vertical and horizontal velocities are independent of each other. That's about as technical as I'll get here. Basically translated into lay man's terms, if you drop a first strike it falls at the same speed as a crossbow rail (so does a feather), but the feather is not the same as a crossbow arrow and is not traveling at 300 fps. Lets make a long story longer by a couple more interesting things too. We can get ballistic reports on the weight/grams of different crossbow arrows and FS. With all that, it sounded like a crossbow sight held some promise. (I really could have gone on but let's just skip to the good stuff now that we've laid the foundation). Some crossbow recticle are calibrated for center cross hair at 20 yards (60 feet). I'm not going to let the Canadians in here on how many meters that is. The next cross hair down on the sight is for 30 yards (90 feet) and the next one down is for 40 yards (120 feet)...Well, you are getting the "picture." And, this is nothing new there are many regular sights with bullet drop compensated (BDC) sights. But those are for various types of metal jackets, weights, and grams and so they have no relationship or use in paintball (esp with the velocities on those rounds traveling well above 1000 fps -image a first strike round at those speeds  . Of course, there are a number of crossbow sight manufactures with different reticules and range finding as well as variable speed adjustments that change the reticule spacing. How cool this that, you adjust your your scope to the actual speed of the projectile based on the chronograph reading - competition shooting baby - true accuaracy! But, those scopes get up there in bucks so, I'm describing a rather simple one here. I ordered a TruGlo from Amazon for $62 bucks (total including shipping, handling, and taxes.) It came with mounting rings too. It is not illuminated (I don't hunt other humans after dusk). It has hand adjust 1 click is 1/4 inch (MOA) at 20 yards adjustment for windage and elevation. NO Batteries, just like my Tiberius! Anyway, bottom line, it is awesome for the price. It is a fixed 4x which is a great introduction for me. Generous 6 inch eye relief (something very important to me  ), and very bright. Came with lens covers too (which are see through so I use them to protect the actual lens underneath. But, it was phenomenal and accurate (hit tennis balls hung on strings at 20, 40 and 60 yards with one shot - well actually two shots for the 60 yarder - I exaggerated for effect) But, all this was done in a standing position with no support/no bipod! There are many different models and options so take a look. The Hawke looks top of the line to me around $279 street but has all the bells and whistles including occural adjust and variable speed adjust. There's a Ten Point and a Redpoint Revenge (Leapuold) and a Nikon - yes, Nikon makes a crossbow sight! all those running around $179 - I think). The excalibur looked like another great crossbow sight and only around $110. I started out around half of that so I could get my feet wet and see it if was for me. Just wanted to give everyone here a heads up. Oh, because of the technology in these scopes. They are only available in the states...sorry canada! The TruGlo is mounted on my old killjoy riser and I'm using it with the killjoy ROC Stock so its a dream and so easy to sight even with a paintball mask on. p.s. my younger son tried it too and I let him fire off 3 or four mags of first strikes at the range they had there (was firing at 278 again). I left it at the field with him to try in the next game. Can't wait to here how it worked for him. I also left 3 more first strike mags with him. I'm a wonderful dad. And, @ wolfen, since I got the 4x32 scope, I put the Tiberius Lapco 0.683 14 inch rifled barrel back in my T9.1. The deaf leopard prowls again! |
|
|
|
Post by Wolfen on Apr 7, 2012 18:51:44 GMT -5
Crossbow scopes works great for paintball! Actually so do many many shotgun scopes because they're also built and designed for "closer" ranges. There's even more then a few crossbow scopes out there with built in range estimators which makes adjustments a breeze. They tend to cost abit though. Also i hope you won't have problems with your lapco barrel like before  |
|
|
|
Post by chicago on Apr 9, 2012 10:41:24 GMT -5
You see, this is what happens when I'm serious about something. No one responds or comes up with other suggestions (except, you). I knew about shotgun sights, my oldest son had purchased one years ago. But, we were spray and play round projectiles back then and the shotgun sight fell into disfavor. Round projectiles provide no accuracy at all. NADA! I thought I was really onto to something with a crossbow sight cause the of speeds and distances; but, apparently, I was the only person in the world who had not heard of or tried a crossbow scope. So, anyway, after much study, if I had the money, I'd have a real EoTech for my CQB MP7 ( silent knight) and a Hawke XB for my sniper rifle T9.1 ( deaf leopard). I'll provide the link to the Hawke here in case anyone is interested: www.hawkeoptics.com/crossbow-scopes/xb30.htmlIf I could afford something like that, I would buy it for my marker. When you think about the rifle to scope cost ratio; it's not that bad compared to our markers and the barrels we buy. Speaking of barrel, while on a practice range the other day, the Tiberius/Lapco 0.683 shredded another First Strike really bad. I'm going to take your advice and contact Tiberius Arms. |
|
|
|
Post by Allu on Apr 9, 2012 12:22:19 GMT -5
Well I for one think you'r definately on to something, let us know how it plays out
|
|
|
|
Post by Soldier of Fortune on Apr 9, 2012 16:40:16 GMT -5
Well I for one think you'r definately on something ... Fixxed  |
|
|
|
Post by Allu on Apr 10, 2012 13:28:44 GMT -5
Well yes that to  .. but I don't see how that takes away from this discussion in any way... It's a totally valid point. In my opinion a sight should aid the user in placing rounds on target, no mater what it's labeled as or how it is constructed. And as murphys law of combat states; if it's stupid and works... it's not stupid. I think that the velocity argument chicago mentioned is a relevant one, since it indeed relates to the ballistics of the paintball round. IMHO I think it is really a question of finding a sight that offers you the right reticle at the right eye relief and the right field of vision at the right magnification with the right adjustment capabilities and furthermore holds up to the strains of the paintball field. I have also been wondering if some sights for the bow market might suit the ballers needs. |
|
|
|
Post by chicago on Apr 28, 2012 11:41:59 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 11, 2012 14:08:19 GMT -5
Well, I did it. Yesterday was my birthday. And today I purchased a Hawke XB30 at a ridiculously low price. For me, $143 is no small chunk of change; but, with the Hawke going for $279 street price. I kinda feel I stole it for $143 including the shipping! Liked the Leatherwood ART system above but, I had to go with the hawke for only twenty bucks more. I'm including a pix of the deaf leopard as she is now with her trueglo scope. Can't wait to see the Hawke on her. p.s. two things. The trueglo is ok, but the reticule on the hawke looks awesome. Secondly, ....I'm embarrassed (I'm an old man, I forgot what #2 was. Girls, please get the the suppositories ready. I forgot what a #2 looked like! Oh! I remember now. While dremeling the silent knight (see separate hammerhead post) to better fit the hammerhead M50 muzzle, VoodooAddict took the dremel to my old 14 inch one piece from flasC (it was part of the non production test batch that never saw the light of day). It was the most accurate paintball barrel I ever fired with only one problem. It always, always broke the second first strike in the breach! Two separate barrels tried; both had the same MO - all the measurements and dimensions were fine; but these one piece barrels refused to fire more than one shot. Quite a mess. So, as long as I had VoodooAddicts skilled hands and a warm dremel, I asked him to sand the edges of the breach. It was worthless as it was! I figured I'd be throwing it out afterwards. Guess what! It works, put 16 rounds of first strikes thru (two mags worth) no breaks. Why tell us this? Because now I can get rid of that lapco/tiberius 0.683 riffled barrel that usually breaks a round every 16-24 shots! And, so the barrel you see on the deaf leopard is the FLASC 14 inch one piece! I fired one magazine at 50 yards using the truglo scope and at 275 fps, 7 of 8 rounds went through a 3 inch foam plate. It was neat cause the plastic from the round ended up stuck behind the foam bowl the other was slight high like less than half an inch off the edge of the plate. It was probably me cause I was just in a standing position with no support. The rounds were all a little high from center but I assumed that's cause I'd sight this marker using the riffled barrel that pulls thing down a little and to the right! I was just testing to see if I could get the barrel to work - not sight it in, etc. But, it kinda proved my point about the accuracy thing!  |
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 15, 2012 14:36:49 GMT -5
Well, today, my Hawke XB30 came in. It was everything I expected and more, much more. Got it mounted and laser bore sighted. Crispest scope I've ever used. Works fine with mask on. Everything is perfect. Don't have time to fire it today. I am so tempted and may still do it; but, I'm mature enough to know that one shot won't do. It will fall short or it will go high. The manual for this beast says to start at the 40 yard (120 foot) reticule and at 315 fps and then they tell you to adjust the speed control up or down a little at a time until it is dead on at 40 yards. Because of their system, they say that it is now adjusted and zeroed for 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 yards! But, that will take time! Because of the trajectory of first strikes, I don't trust bore sighting anymore. It's fine for approximate windage but elevation is always up for grabs cause paintballs aren't travel at 3000fps (they travel less than 300fps more of an arch that actually causes it to rise a little out of the barrel and then fall). And with rifling and non-riffled barrels you get that extra spin to the right and down! So sorry this is only going to be part one of the review. But, from what I saw and the great ocular adjust and two different illumination colors I'm looking forward to my next adjustments (using a chrono and a stand and a very, very long tape measure! After all that, I'll also provide a pix. It looks wicked. Oh, and with an empty mag in, I love the balance, too! I'll start out with: - A FLASC 14 inch one piece barrel (smooth bore) with gen2 porting and FLASC fake suppressor.
- Ninja regulated HPA tank 4500psi with ouput regulated at 420 psi.
- First Strike of course
- A chrono (targetting 278 fps)
- A table
- A T9.1 can't forget that
- And, a witness (VoodooAddict thinks he can be here Thursday)
Any other suggestions (I'm not setting up a weather station for humditiy extra - that varies game to game). Of course, Saturday I'll field test it! edit, ok I'm a proud Dad now and the deaf leopard did want to show off for you:    |
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 16, 2012 9:48:35 GMT -5
One thing I need to ask. You'll probably notice in my pix, fine particles of paint (mostly pink). Some of you guys (and gal) out there get great pix and your markers look so well maintained (no pink paint dust). How do you do it?
For me, my markers see a lot of action. Although, I'm much, much slower than I used to be and start out most games now as a sniper; unless I'm holding and entire enemy advance on my tape line, I'm still moving and advancing, trying to get a good angle. That gets me in lots of fire fighjts with spray and play enemy...thus, all the small fragments of paint (and bigger splats when I'm not careful or get flanked!) I'm not complaining, I love the game and the fact that you never know what will happen next.
I can't believe that the fine particles have already found their way to the XB30. It has seen no action yet, it's almost like its a static charge type thing that occurs whenever I touch a marker. Hey, maybe it's just fairy dust! Anyway, any suggestion on removing these small pieces of dust?
Oh, today, if time permits, I'm headed out back to give the deaf leopard a spin. And VoodooAddict said he'e be with me this Thursday so I'm hoping to have my new scope tuned and ready for battle.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wolfen on May 16, 2012 11:26:17 GMT -5
I always use some cotton swabs and a clean paint brush to get all the dust and paint from my markers, fast, easy and you'll reach all cracks and corners.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allu on May 16, 2012 12:53:08 GMT -5
^
/ \
II
II
What he said,
also compressed air in a can/dust off/ or whatever they call it (used to take dust out of computers among other things )
|
|
|
|
Post by Wolfen on May 16, 2012 16:40:29 GMT -5
oh yea, i use that too ( did i teach you that trick?) |
|
|
|
Post by Allu on May 17, 2012 8:51:02 GMT -5
Might be
|
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 17, 2012 10:20:01 GMT -5
Someone captured the picture of what you see thru the scope. So, I stole it and am posting it here. Well, I actually didn't steal it. It is on the Hawke website and on their packaging and since I did purchase their sight, I think I have the right to post it here:  The red cross hairs can be changed to green (5 levels if intensity already tried it at noon on a very sunny day - didn't even use the highest setting). The cross hairs are so crisp and reduce the clutter of other reticules. The top (biggest) cross hair is for 20 yards (yards and meters are almost the same; and, 20 yards is 60 feet). Each of the cross hairs below represent 10 more yards of distance from the target. What I really like is the little "+'s," each of its sides represent 1 inch! And, the bars empty space on each side is one foot at the appropriate range. Making range estimations a breeze and quick target acquisition. Someone on the Tiberius forum asked if on the lower magnifications you could use two eyes. I believe you can its like a 33mm aperture and 4 inch eye relief. I could shoot it that way; but, I haven't had time to try it in a game yet and what I'd been looking for was better accuracy, range determination, and comfort with a mask on. This delivered all that. I don't know if many of you have ever heard the term "buyer's remorse?" Well after I purchase it I thought to myself, "Are you crazy. $143 for a paintball scope?" But, now that it has arrived and been mounted on my marker, I have no remorse. I believe it was one of the best decisions I've made. Now, let's see if real field play proves that out! |
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 17, 2012 17:57:19 GMT -5
All I can say is WOW. I had a chance to go out before supper and setup a tape measure that is like 240 ft long (80 yards).
Put a table up at 20 yards and did the quick sight in as they suggested.
Then moved the table to 40 yards and adjusted the elavation using the speed dial as they suggested. And, it was the same speed as the chrono measured 275 fps. Bam! the next shot was right on for the forty yards cross hair. Ran up the the yard mark on the tape (60 feet). Bang! dead on again. Then I said to voodooaddict "hey let's use the scope to tell us were 30 yards is." We used an old mask to approx a one foot target.
We walked until the mask fit in the side bar. He looked down and laughed. I asked, "How many feet?" he said "90." Wow, I was at the 30 yard view! He tried it at forty were we had the table. The mask fit just right at the 40 yard measure. Laughed and said he had to get one.
We ran 48 rounds thru the FLASC one piece 14 inch barrel. He wondered how the Lapco/Tiberius one piece riffled would do. So, if I have time, I'm going to retest, rechrono, and reset the speed ring on my sight (that should be all I have to do. It's the same T9.1 (the scope had not moved). Only the barrel (and of course the velocity with the 0.683 bore). Can't wait but there wasn't anymore time today (day walkers you know).
Tomorrow I'll find out if I get a better pattern than the Flasc (6 inch patterns - 3 inches out on either side and 3 inches high or low at 120 ft, 40 yards using only a bipod - those were the widest/off dead center shots). I'm really interested to see it with everything else the same, I get a truer shot with the riffled and if it does force the pattern down and to the right as the extra spin they claim should produce.
|
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 18, 2012 9:53:12 GMT -5
Over on the Tiberius forum, Wolfsydra asked me about using the APR with my new XB30 scope. Here's my response (just in case any of you were wondering the same): "Today, I'm hoping to post something on the 0.683 riffled barrel but have dinner plans and tomorrow out at the field to test so may be no result til Monday. But, I did want to respond to the question about an adjustable pictinny rail (APR). To be honest, I don't know how I would use it with a sophisticated targeting system like this. I get out to 60 yards (almost 200 feet) of accuracy. If I then used the adjustable rail beyond that point, which crosshair would I use and what would it do to the range finding capabilities? To be honest, I guess I'm not that great a paintball sniper; or, I don't have the confidence. Beyond 200 feet, there aren't that many shots worth taking and even some of those are a waste even for me. So, I guess I'm saying that it will be a very long time before I'm tempted to use it. I'm just so happy for what I've got. My current 6 inch pattern is enough to take out most players in one maybe two shot if they are moving slowly or stationary. That is a thrill for me. And shots beyond that are really expensive for me $0.39 per shot. At that range roughly a US dollar per target on average (only to then see them wipe it off thru my scope  ). Oh, I still take one or two shots above that range but only if its completely unobstructed. That was a long way of saying, using an APR to get me beyond that point isn't something that is on the forefront of my mind. In these last two days, I'll go through a 100 round bulk case just adjusting and practicing and testing this new scope." That's $40 US. I maybe green; but, I'm not made out of money. |
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 18, 2012 15:26:32 GMT -5
Update, I could not wait. Got out there this morning with the Tiberius/Lapco 0.683 riffled barrel and wolfen is going to love this because I have to eat my words. The riffled barrel (with a good professional scope) is truly more accurate! 50 shots with First Strikes today no breaks! And after cranking the regulator 1 and 1/2 turns up and a couple of fine adjustments, I was now firing at 275. I still believe I see about a one inch drop every 2-3 shots (which I still blame on the bore size grabbing the first strike round).
At 40 yards (I pick that cause that's the spot in my backyard were it is safest to shoot), I got a three inch pattern consistently. So, the riffling does seem to be better than even the 14 inch one piece, smooth bore FLASC. Everything else was the same. New scope was crisp. Around noon here and did not have the scope on max illumination!
Tomorrow, I've decided not to take it to the field. More testing using the Hammerhead riffled (it is a 0.688 bore which I believe might eliminate the 1 inch random drops). Then Sunday, it is off to CPX to see my youngest son who is playing pro again at the same time Living Legends is going on. That will give my two bulk boxes of FS time to reach me for next weeks field testing.
I'm hoping the hammerhead will be as accurate as the lapco/tib cause the 14 inch non-port is just not to my taste - it makes the barrel with a silencer much too long for my taste (over twenty inches). The 8.5 inch hammerhead with the 6 inch FLASC suppressor make a much more manageable length for me when playing paintball (either woods or airball).
But, I just report the facts as I always do (yes, the facts as I see them). I think pie r squared is the area of a circle. So 6 inches pattern is a field that is roughly 113 square inches, 0.07 square meters (FLASC) where the 3 inch pattern is a field that is roughly 28 square inches or 0.02 square meters. Which would you gamble on?
Please lord, make the hammerhead just as accurate. I'm so much more comfortable with a shorter barrel but roughly 4 times more accurate is a tough thing the give up. I guess I could get used to a longer barrel (or try one of the short 8 inch pistol 0.683's that Lapco did on a limited run). I can't afford another barrel so please hammerhead please work tomorrow. I'll be up all night tonight thinking about it.
__________________
|
|
|
|
Post by Wolfen on May 18, 2012 17:28:38 GMT -5
Im almost always right . As for the hammerhead i still can't believe it will work as it's supposed to... you can't make a .688 rifled barrel for a projectile that .685-.686... it's simple logic that says that the rifling won't engage as they should if the projectile is smaller then the actual rifling ( you'll get random spin as the ball bounces from side to side in the barrel). Now if the lapco .683 the optimal? i don't know, but i do know since i've had both alot to do with real firearms and paintball as well as a fair share of physics that you need at the very least the same bore on the rifling for it to properly engage, preferably even a slight underbore (still waiting for someone to come out with a .864 or .865 rifled.). Despite all that i hope it does work for you if the length of the lapco ain't suited for you . Also i really do love that scope of yours... want one for myself, but i'd go the extra 50 $ and pick up one with built in laser range finder On a side note, it's not that difficult to port the lapco barrel so that a silencer can be added on top of it (or just to make it quieter without a silencer), just make sure you drill small holes along the "ravine" of the rifling, also let the first 8" stay unported. Saw a video of a guy that had done that and oh boy it was so much more silent, almost makes me want to do that and just skip all my silencers and drill away. As long as you don't touch the first 8 " or the rifling ridges the actual functionality of the barrel won't change. |
|
|
|
Post by chicago on May 19, 2012 8:34:23 GMT -5
Well, I tried to run 0.684 using a smooth bore FLASC kit using First Strikes only of course. Nothing but breaks. So, if I were to try any other bore it would be 0.685 which as you point out, no one makes.
I'm assuming that the 0.683 bore that works is 0.683 on the ridges and bigger in the valleys of the bore, that is the reason it has any chance of working and that's why it grabs and seems to catch all the plastic in the barrel all the time.
I'll report on the hammerhead 0.688 later today.
|
|
.
.. but I don't see how that takes away from this discussion in any way... It's a totally valid point.
). Oh, I still take one or two shots above that range but only if its completely unobstructed.