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Post by Wolfen on Jun 23, 2012 11:21:12 GMT -5
Curious, what kind of barrel do they intend to put on this as stock barrel? Will they partner up with some other company, or do they intend to design and put out their own?. IF they make their own, this is what i've concluded after pondering,testing as well as my ballistics knowledge from the use of real firearms (applied to first strikes and paintball) Rifling for first strikes is a god given gift. Optimal bore size would most likely be .685-.686, this because a very slight underbore will make the rifling engage the first strike properly (pretty much like a real bullet), while not applying so much drag that you need to crank up your velocity. Going smaller like the lapco/tib, while insanely accurate will cause alot of drag, going bigger and you risk that the rifling won't properly engage. As for length i'd suggest 10-11", that will give long enough of rifling to give the right and proper spin on the first strike while reducing the drag it would get if the barrel were any longer. It's sort of a safe zone, too short and it might not get enough spin (depending on the rifling type), too long and you'll get extra drag,which will force you to crank up the velocity more. Also a bit shorter barrel might save you some weight
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Post by trinity on Jun 23, 2012 13:46:50 GMT -5
Bill hasn't given me an answer on the internal air tank in the mag well, but I actually found his answer in an older post he had made somewhere else in which he discussed these kinds of possibities. He won't build an air tank /mag because of liability concerns. That should have been readily apparent to me but I liked the concept and lost sight of the real world for a moment.
The barrel is still being discussed, but he tells me that he can make it to take whatever I what to put on it. I don't know exactly what that means but I will soon. The new test guns are in production now.
As for the T9.1 already being an accurate platform, all I can say is that sometimes it is. Even with HPA my T9.1 will probably not have the 3"group that your rifle and Chicago's has. It will be good, just not that good. I am convinced, after further testing, that my T9, even on 12 grams, will be slightly more consistent than my T9.1 under the best of conditions. Why? Who knows for certain. I'll tell you what I think though. I believe Tiberius guns have acceptable craftmanship, but it isn't what I would class as superior craftsmanship. Acceptable craftsmanship and parts mean that the the quality of the guns that are produced will vary. While that's true with every product ever made no matter how well it's put together. What's equally true is that a higher level of worksmanship when a thing is made yields a far higher level of overall consistency.
In other words, my air system will just never have the level of consistency of yours. That's not a big deal. I can live with that. I don't shoot in bulleye matches and there a lot of factors that go into accuracy besides consistency. As long as my velocity is close to what Chicago describes then I will compensate on the field where I can.
Tiberius deserves credit for bringing the first strike to market. It changed the game. Since the inception of the T9.1, however, they really haven't done much with the platform. Other manufacturers are beginning to move on their territory. Many, many of the hardcore users are selling their Tiberius stuff so they can fund the purchase of another first strike platform. Guys like UVHalo leaving the Tiberius line is a huge blow. He brought a lot of insight and testing with him and I will miss his posts on the Internet.
Make no mistake this aspect of paintball is evolving. Someone is going to build a product that shoots more accurately. The question is, who?
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Post by chicago on Jun 23, 2012 14:27:13 GMT -5
I can help confirm the "assumption" about craftsmanship; and not mentioned, but true - there are mulitple version of the Tx.1 series includuing their "air chambers." I know this firsthand. Even the T8.1s (that's why, before you get a remote kit for the T8.1 you need to give Tiberius your serial number). It is because there are different versions and the remote kits because their internals are actually different.
I know I have both types. So, what I'm saying in my normal, long winded way is "they didn't change to T8.2 they just changed the internals and told noone. So, my T9.1 may be more consistent than yours based in the internals. Yes, when we get superior craftsmanship, our patterms will probably become tighter.
I haven't got to weighing each round yet. But, that's because I'd have to spend more money on a good scale (not because of the time involved). And, if I spent the money on a good scale, I'd have less to spend on First Strikes! I know that other people, like VoodooAddict, even store their rounds in tubes and only remove them when they are going to be used so that the slow liquid inside is exactly the same shape from shot to shot.
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Post by Wolfen on Jun 23, 2012 16:35:33 GMT -5
the craftmanship might be part of it. 2 things i did that really helped, especially with the consistancy was polish my internals and changed the output pressure on my tank to 480 psi. Those 2 things dropped the inconsistency from about +/- 8 to +/- 2. Other things i do is store all my first strikes in 10 round tubes standing upright in a Cooling box that i carry to the field (there should be pictures of it somewhere here). Anyhow back to topic Internal mag! please please please.
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Post by trinity on Jun 24, 2012 16:40:21 GMT -5
Barrel length with first strikes hasn't really been tested all that much. The Lapco/Tiberius barrel is longer and really accurate. Chicago's testing seems to show that the shorter of the two Hammerhead barrels seems to perform slightly better.
I haven't used or even held CCM's newest pump, the T2. The SR1 will be be built using the internals for their pumps so I have been studying those internals a bit. The good news is that out of the box their consistency is going to be, according to the reviews I am reading, +/- about 2 FPS. It is pure pleasure to look at the machining of the parts that go into the gun and exciting to read reviewers talking about just how high the quality of build is in this gun.
The T2 I haven't used but their customer service staff is still essentially the same as it was when they sponsored us and I can tell you that if you have any questions or concerns they are outstanding to deal with.
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Post by gubment on Jul 14, 2012 10:08:59 GMT -5
Its been quiet in here. Has there been any thought in having the rounds mag fed or is this strictly a single shot bolt action. Kinda like the Long shot in the Gears of War series, for any of you gamers who know what I'm talking about.
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Post by trinity on Jul 14, 2012 11:50:53 GMT -5
The SR1 is only going to be a single-shot rifle at this point. I haven't said much because I know the first batch of the latest prototypes just got back from being annoed, but I won't pick mine up until next Saturday. Bill is talking about the idea that down the road we may see a mag-fed model, but not until he gets this one done exactly how he wants it and it's taken three years to get to where we are now.
Later today I will be posting up on my Blog some shots of the anno colors of the current prototype bodies and some comments by Bill. All I can say is that the machining is just beautiful.
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Post by chicago on Jul 14, 2012 11:56:46 GMT -5
Dying to see one, great to see it is coming together. I'd really like to try one. Single shot is just fine by me as long as I have either a spotter with more fire power or a 2-3 point sling system with a T8.1 pistol for backup. I've been flanked. A single shot would not do it under that scenario.
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Post by gubment on Jul 14, 2012 14:33:18 GMT -5
Ok cool, I was wondering about that but Im happy either way. I cant wait to see them so please leave a link.
After my last post i was thinking about the barrel. I was thinking of a non ported loud barrel just for the indimidation factor. On that note, does ported barrels have any other advantages? Never really thought about it.
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Post by archorn on Jul 14, 2012 15:26:28 GMT -5
This is what they say on the HammerHead website about porting (mainly reverse porting but it might still be usefull)
4) What are the effects of porting on marker accuracy?
We found that porting significantly affected the accuracy of the barrel. Properly ported barrels and counter-bored barrels performed better than conventional barrels consisting of perpendicular, small opening porting. Our studies show pressure differences in the barrel and the atmosphere exist and vary with the porting design and shape. We also noted that the angle of the porting, and the cross sectional area of the porting affected the accuracy and the pressure in front of the ball measured at the muzzle... The slow motion video in combination with pressure sensors along the length of the test barrels showed that the air would exit and re-enter reverse porting as the ball would pass by the porting. the ball pushes air out of the barrel as it moves down the length of the barrel build a pressure wave in front of the ball, and is drawing air in behind the counter-bored and reversed porting it as the balls passes the reverse porting. As air enters in the porting behind the ball, the pressure adjacent to the ball comes closer to atmospheric allowing the ball to regenerate to its original shape before the ball exits the barrel if the angle and the size of the porting are adequate. Our studies show reducing the pressure wave by with reverse porting and counter-boring improves barrel accuracy. The improved accuracy is due to less turbulence at the barrel exit. Pressure differential at the muzzle exit results in turbulence at the barrel atmosphere interface. We have determined the counter-boring of the barrel in combination with the reverse porting reduces the pressure and turbulence in front of the ball. We have also determined that the counter-boring results in a larger barrel diameter at the muzzle. The larger barrel diameter results in a reduced pressure section and allows the ball to regenerate (go back to the round shape) before the ball exits the barrel.
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Post by trinity on Jul 18, 2012 0:23:47 GMT -5
I've got the photos of the anodized SR1 prototypes up on my Blog. I will have more this weekend after I actually get my hands on one. I will be mounting the Magpul PRS stock to it and top it with my Bushnell Banner 1-4x for now using the HHA Optimizer.
Because I am playing without the aid of a spotter I may have to step up to a Nikon Slughunter 2-7x. I hate losing the 1x setting but it might be something I need to do to get a better idea of where my rounds are hitting at 60 yards and beyond.
I will be putting both pictures and video on my Blog as soon as I get them done. Then I will doing a bit of field testing.
The link is in my signature.
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Post by chicago on Jul 18, 2012 11:07:25 GMT -5
They are absolutely beautiful. Can't wait til your fire and report on them. I have never wanted another marker - but, this might change my mind.
Oh, and get the EOtech. My eye sight demanded it. But, the joy it brought was even more rewarding. I still believe in first strikes only, so if your T8 hasn't been converted to FS capable then I would not recommend the EOtech. Else, it is a must! And I like your new avatar. Without a spotter, you truly are a lone wolf now!
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Post by chicago on Jul 21, 2012 13:51:49 GMT -5
Another suggestion. I assumed (but, should not have) that there will be a quality picatinny rail at least one on the top. A single rail (not tow or three pieces) that is straight and aligned with the breach (something less that I should have to worry about.)
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Post by chicago on Jul 22, 2012 18:41:09 GMT -5
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Post by trinity on Aug 9, 2012 0:59:27 GMT -5
Things are busy. I am beginning the testing on the SR1. I just got the air adapter in it this week so no time for any real in-depth accuracy testing yet. What I can tell you is that I like it a lot. Everything about the way this is built gives me a feeling that when I pull the trigger a first strike will go down range like it is supposed to. The Delta Paintball Team bought three of these and they seem to be having a ball with them. One of their guys is posting a 100 yard+ kill on mcarterbrown's forum. Apparently the shot was taken out of a 15' tower on the field. All I can really report so far is that I have done just a bit of preliminary testing over the chrono. The consistency of the SR1 using a Ninja HPA set-up is amazing. Now, when I say preliminary I mean preliminary. I was impatient and curious so I went out in the backyard and put about ten rounds through it. I thought the chrono quite working because for the first three shots the FPS didn't change at all. On the fourth shot it moved down one FPS. Seven shots were either +/- 1 FPS with several back-to-back identical readings. One round was -2 FPS, and one round was -3. The gun has about 50 rounds through it so far. No wild swings. Again, this is just the results from testing it with 10 rounds. Stay tuned for more when I can. I have mounted the Flasc suppressor on the end of the barrel. It makes the rifle very long just like using the Tiberius/Lapco with the suppressor on board. The SR1 is quiet to begin with and the suppressor makes about a -20 decibel difference according to my quick tests (10 more shots fired). This gun is going to be really, really hard to detect at any distance downrange. More on those numbers on my blog when I get them put together and fire a few more rounds. What makes things tougher is that as soon as I make suggestions Bill is acting on them. I will be back at CCM this Saturday to see some of the things he is working on. I am posting some pictures I have run on my Blog. I have mounted the HHA Optimizer on the SR1 and have a Magpul A2 stocked on it as well. I used a small quad rail to attach the bipod. Here is the range dial for the Optimizer. If you are interested in one of these, contact Bill directly (bill@machineshopdpm.com). He has done up about 50 rifles and is selling them according to those people on his list. The same goes for specific questions. He likes talking about this rifle. The answer to Chicago's question about the stock is that if it fits on an AR it will fit this. I think I will be putting a Magpul PRS on this as soon as I finish looking at every stock in the known universe and just buy the PRS. There is just so much to choose from. The good part about this rifle is that it is really stirring up in interest in first strike rounds in general and sniper stuff in particular. This kind of competition is good for all of us.
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Post by chicago on Aug 9, 2012 15:58:05 GMT -5
Great pix and even better write up on your blog. I always wondered about that optimizer and also about raising the APR to extend the range. I've been tempted to try that with my Hawke XB30. And thanks for finding out about the stock. You are the man!
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Post by trinity on Aug 9, 2012 17:58:01 GMT -5
Aww shucks Chicago. You're welcome.
One thing that the picture of the SR1 points out is just how much the black color stands out as compared to the scope and rail that is painted. Now I don't make any claims that I am Mr. camouflage when it comes to painting my rifles. I just know that spotting big black blobs in the woods always came pretty easy so I painted my guns to make them less visible. When I see this one agains that green backdrop it seems pretty clear that if stealth is important you definitely get an advantage in painting over black. I haven't painted this one because this one isn't mine (hopefully I will pick mine up this weekend).
One words of advice based on my conversations with Bill. If you do buy a prototype concentrate on buying your stock first or the pistol grip. Leave the foregrip for last. He and I are working on something that I will tell you about as soon as I can. What we are working on will certainly fit any of the current prototypes and it doesn't change the rifle itself, but if it works (like it seems to be doing) then you may not need or want anything else for a foregrip. This isn't about looks. If you know me and have seen my paintjobs you know all I care about is improving my performance on the field so what I am talking about is not just a cosmetic improvement. More as soon as I can.
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Post by chicago on Aug 10, 2012 10:48:26 GMT -5
Thanks, I'm still a little timid. Not because of your write ups, because it is a prototype. I really want to see a finalized, standardized barrel, not one I can only get from just one source. Unless of coarse, Bill is willing to modify other companies barrels for free. I thought I'd read early on that the barrel was a modifed cocker thread. I have cocker threads from the old days, but, they are standard threads. I so want to get a rifled cocker threaded barrel from hammerhead. That's why I haven't email Bill yet. Almost did the other day, I'd go for the barebones and I'd be glad to help test and report on it; but, I need to understand more about the barrel first.
That's all I'm waiting for. I plan to mount the Leatherwood camputer for crossbows or the Leupold/Redfield Revenge. I'm going to their sites after I post this to check their max ranges. And, I still like their built in range finders! I don't own a range finder like you. BTW how does it work with your mask and your eyes (i.e. how big is the read out? Please let me know the brand).
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Post by ccmachinist on Aug 10, 2012 21:00:41 GMT -5
Hello everyone.
This is Bill Holstein from CCM.
After getting an e-mail from Trinity , I thought I would drop by and answer a few questions.
Why do we call it a prototype? The SR1 is something I have wanted to build for years. The FS made this dream possible.This is the sixth model we have built This is our (CCM) first step into the mil-sim world. So it really is a prototype for us. But, our air system is the tried and true Sheridan valve which has been used in many paintball guns of which the most well known is the autococker. Our reg is based on the old Bob Long torpedo regulator. We have used these regs and valves in our pump guns for about 12 years now. These are a very stable combination with very little to no issues.
The basic rifle with barrel and no furniture is $450 + shipping. hard black anodizing.
dust black hard anodizing add $65
clear hard ano (od greenish) add $100
import furniture add $55
These prices are subject to change. ( usually up and not down)
The gun weights about 5+/- lbs with furniture. Depending on what you buy. No furniture I'm guessing 3 1/2 lbs.
We were going to add a picatinny but the choices that are available makes it almost impossible to pick one. The top of the gun is drilled with 7 holes 1" apart. That will fit anything out there I would like to think. They are tapped 10-32.We use button head and flat head screws.
I use shells as sizers because FS do vary in diameter. But the real reason is that I wanted a true boltaction paintball gun.
Why no mag? It's hard to design a mag that is 100% reliable for paintball or nose heavy FS rounds. But stay tuned.
Yes you can lock a shell/sizer in the breach and single load the FS or you can load shells and eject them just like the real steel.
It's a single shot. I feel so out gunned. I don't want to pick up shells. I don't want to single feed FS. This gun is not for you.
I can load ,aim and fire. 6 seconds shot to shot and I'm an old guy.
Remember distance is your friend. There is nothing wrong with a tactical retreat.
definitions: A withdrawal is a type of military operation, generally meaning retreating forces back while maintaining contact with the enemy.
Dreaming about being a painball sniper in the real sense is now a reality.
One more note, this is not a paintball gun. It was designed for FS. with paintballs its just another paintball gun.You will get the crap shot out of you using paintballs.
any questions?
Thank you for your time.
Bill-CCM
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Post by chicago on Aug 13, 2012 14:19:01 GMT -5
Hey Trinity and Bill(ccmachinist), I just tracked down and ordered a brand new Leatherwood camputer for crossbows - reticulated/adjusted for crossbow bolt speeds which I've already demonstrate is perfect for first strikes over the same speeds and effective ranges!
Thank goodness vertical and horizontal velocities are independent of each other and the aerodynamics of the crossbow bolt and the first strike are so similar.
So, I've started getting some of the furniture I'd need in anticipation of getting one of your SR1s.
The Leatherwood was discontinued years ago; but, they still have some at the factory in boxes, brand new covered with dust. Did a lot of internet searching to find the right lead. I was so excited to track one down. Now, I need a good stock. Would you have any suggestions?
I'm a little concerned about the standard AR15 stock. It probably won't give enough mask room for comfortable, normal sighting of the marker. This is a single round, bolt action sniper rifle, not an AR15 assualt weapon. I want creature comfort for the long shot.
Can I make suggestion? Make a small adapter for the back to act as a dropdown like you see on the HK PRS stocks.
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