Post by trinity on Jun 15, 2012 15:22:36 GMT -5
CCM is an old sponsor of mine back when I played for the Humboldt Fogdogs. Just before that team broke up, Bill, the owner of CCM, started talking to me about the new first strike rounds and the idea of building the most accurate sniper rifle possible. He and I discussed a lot of ideas and over the past couple of years he has stolen time from his pump marker line-up to develop a prototype rifle. In short, his goal is to make a rifle that can group its round into a target the size of a paper plate at 100 yards. Is that possible given the state of first-strike ballistics? Who knows for sure, but Bill wants to try. What I can tell you is that he is as enthusiastic and fanatical as we are about sniper rifles. That, in an of itself, is a pleasant change.
So why am I bringing this here? It strikes that a larger, bolt action paintball gun is only going to appeal to a very narrow range of players. Exactly the kind of players who frequent this forum. More precisely, the members of this forum. Certainly, not all of you, but some. So I come here looking for ideas, research, and testing. I also come specifically to this protected area of the forum to avoid the Paintball-Nation-kind-of-flaming posts that will invariably come as responses when we talk about this kind of platform. I have a lot to get done and not a lot of time to work with so I don't want to waste any of it reading through nonsense like, "Why can't it shoot 30 balls per second"?
The level of sophistication that is coming from people trying to shoot first strike rounds and shoot them accurately is astounding. There is just a lot going on out there. There are shooters testing air sources for consistency, testing the effectiveness of barrels, and lots of other things.
I will be field testing CCM's sniper rifle. Bill wants to build the best and most accurate bolt-action sniper rifle out there and he is open to suggestions as to how that gun should be built within certain limits. I am going to try and give him the best information I can.
Understand that we don't start with a completely blank slate. There are certain givens that just aren't going to change and they are what we have to work within. What are those givens? First, the internals are going to be the same as CCM's pumps. Don't ask me what those are because I am not the guy to answer that question. I have used their pumps though and they are one of the most consistent guns out there. For those of you with a technical bend, go or call CCM and ask them about those internals. They love to talk paintball. Then maybe you can tell me what the trade-offs in using those internals are, cause everything in paintball is a series of trade-offs.
Second, the gun will be a bolt-action with first strikes that actually fit into shell casings stored in a mag underneath or are individually fed into the chamber. The bolt action is what Bill wanted to build and it does resolve certain feeding issues that magazines can create. As to the shell casings, there is a reason for that to, but I can't go into the why. I can tell you that Bill has done some testing that seems to indicate improved accuracy because of the nature of the first strikes themselves. Having heard the reason I can tell you (although I haven't tested the theory myself) that it makes sense and it addresses a concern I have had with first strikes for quite some time. More on this later.
Third, the gun will be made to fit real-gun accessories. You want to pull your magpul sniper stock and forearm off your real steal .308 and slap it on this beast. You will be able to do that.
Other than those three things and the goal to make it as accurate as possible, everything else seems to be up for discussion.
So, here is my laundry list of questions.
1. Barrel length? Bill has done some testing that shows that longer barrels perform better than shorter barrels. I agree with that to a point. I am thinking about a 14" barrel and I have some testing to back-up that length but it is far from a settled issue.
2. Rifling? That seems to be an easy "yes" answer. Whose rifling pattern is another matter.
3. Air source? I don't think this beast is going to be accurate enough with 12 grams even though that is what I use (and am satisfied with) in my Tiberius rifles. My quess is some kind of remote tank with HPA recommended but it probably should be possible to use with Co2 for those who live in places where HPA is not possible. This won't be an electronic gun so Co2 is a possiblity.
4. Barrel diameter? Hammerhead's .688 seems to be getting great reviews at this point. Maybe even use hammerhead barrels as the standard right out of the box?
5. Barrel threading? Whose?
6. Suppressors? What I am seeing and will be testing is that suppressors seem to impact accuracy when used with rifling but not when used with smooth bore barrels. If not a suppressor what does Bill put on the end of this thing? A simple thread cap?
7. Stock? Users will be free to put anything on that they wish but what will come stock? Roc Stock?
8. Optics? I have a project I am putting together and have some definite ideas on this topic that center around some crossbow optics. I don't believe the Hawke XB30 will be enough for this weapon because the reticles take it out to only about 180 feet, although it is possible to increase that range with an APR. There is another approach I am working on that I will elaborate on in the future that could easily take us out to 240 feet. For long range shooting of the type that this gun contemplates, I believe that a scope with magnification is essential. I don't think you have to put a 10x on it, but I do think it that a 4x is about the minimum to really see where your rounds are impacting at 80 -100 yards. For shooting shorter ranges the scope should probably also be a variable with plenty of eye relief although the right stock will make that less of a concern.
That's it for now. You are the guys that I think will have the answers to the questions I am asking and there will be more. Please know, that anything that I suggest to Bill will either have to be tested by me personally or will have to come from me to him with some supporting data derived from testing.
I would suggest, as a starting point, going to the MCarterbrown forum topic listed under CCM's thread and familiarizing yourself with what is out there already about their prototype. I will attach that link. There is quite a bit of information about the gun there but, unfortunately, there is also lots and lots of wasted posts which is one of the big reasons why I choose a forum like this to come to for help.
www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/c...le-thread.html
I know there will be a million more questions about gun availability, gun specs, prices, etc. Please be patient and remember this isn't CCM's main product line. Bill doesn't care about being the first new platform out there. He just wants to be the most accurate. For those of you mulling over whether this might be something you're interested in, know this. The gun won't be small and light. If CQB is what you like playing with then this probably won't interest you. If your looking for something with a semi-auto action, look to another platform.
I am hoping that I will have a prototype to play with by Supergame in Portland in August. That depends on how quickly they can build one for me and how much testing and shooting time I will have before I go. Keep your fingers crossed. As information becomes available that I am cleared to share I will post it here or on my Blog when I get it back up. I am working on that now.
Maybe we will finally a chance to know just how accurate a first-strike round can be.
So why am I bringing this here? It strikes that a larger, bolt action paintball gun is only going to appeal to a very narrow range of players. Exactly the kind of players who frequent this forum. More precisely, the members of this forum. Certainly, not all of you, but some. So I come here looking for ideas, research, and testing. I also come specifically to this protected area of the forum to avoid the Paintball-Nation-kind-of-flaming posts that will invariably come as responses when we talk about this kind of platform. I have a lot to get done and not a lot of time to work with so I don't want to waste any of it reading through nonsense like, "Why can't it shoot 30 balls per second"?
The level of sophistication that is coming from people trying to shoot first strike rounds and shoot them accurately is astounding. There is just a lot going on out there. There are shooters testing air sources for consistency, testing the effectiveness of barrels, and lots of other things.
I will be field testing CCM's sniper rifle. Bill wants to build the best and most accurate bolt-action sniper rifle out there and he is open to suggestions as to how that gun should be built within certain limits. I am going to try and give him the best information I can.
Understand that we don't start with a completely blank slate. There are certain givens that just aren't going to change and they are what we have to work within. What are those givens? First, the internals are going to be the same as CCM's pumps. Don't ask me what those are because I am not the guy to answer that question. I have used their pumps though and they are one of the most consistent guns out there. For those of you with a technical bend, go or call CCM and ask them about those internals. They love to talk paintball. Then maybe you can tell me what the trade-offs in using those internals are, cause everything in paintball is a series of trade-offs.
Second, the gun will be a bolt-action with first strikes that actually fit into shell casings stored in a mag underneath or are individually fed into the chamber. The bolt action is what Bill wanted to build and it does resolve certain feeding issues that magazines can create. As to the shell casings, there is a reason for that to, but I can't go into the why. I can tell you that Bill has done some testing that seems to indicate improved accuracy because of the nature of the first strikes themselves. Having heard the reason I can tell you (although I haven't tested the theory myself) that it makes sense and it addresses a concern I have had with first strikes for quite some time. More on this later.
Third, the gun will be made to fit real-gun accessories. You want to pull your magpul sniper stock and forearm off your real steal .308 and slap it on this beast. You will be able to do that.
Other than those three things and the goal to make it as accurate as possible, everything else seems to be up for discussion.
So, here is my laundry list of questions.
1. Barrel length? Bill has done some testing that shows that longer barrels perform better than shorter barrels. I agree with that to a point. I am thinking about a 14" barrel and I have some testing to back-up that length but it is far from a settled issue.
2. Rifling? That seems to be an easy "yes" answer. Whose rifling pattern is another matter.
3. Air source? I don't think this beast is going to be accurate enough with 12 grams even though that is what I use (and am satisfied with) in my Tiberius rifles. My quess is some kind of remote tank with HPA recommended but it probably should be possible to use with Co2 for those who live in places where HPA is not possible. This won't be an electronic gun so Co2 is a possiblity.
4. Barrel diameter? Hammerhead's .688 seems to be getting great reviews at this point. Maybe even use hammerhead barrels as the standard right out of the box?
5. Barrel threading? Whose?
6. Suppressors? What I am seeing and will be testing is that suppressors seem to impact accuracy when used with rifling but not when used with smooth bore barrels. If not a suppressor what does Bill put on the end of this thing? A simple thread cap?
7. Stock? Users will be free to put anything on that they wish but what will come stock? Roc Stock?
8. Optics? I have a project I am putting together and have some definite ideas on this topic that center around some crossbow optics. I don't believe the Hawke XB30 will be enough for this weapon because the reticles take it out to only about 180 feet, although it is possible to increase that range with an APR. There is another approach I am working on that I will elaborate on in the future that could easily take us out to 240 feet. For long range shooting of the type that this gun contemplates, I believe that a scope with magnification is essential. I don't think you have to put a 10x on it, but I do think it that a 4x is about the minimum to really see where your rounds are impacting at 80 -100 yards. For shooting shorter ranges the scope should probably also be a variable with plenty of eye relief although the right stock will make that less of a concern.
That's it for now. You are the guys that I think will have the answers to the questions I am asking and there will be more. Please know, that anything that I suggest to Bill will either have to be tested by me personally or will have to come from me to him with some supporting data derived from testing.
I would suggest, as a starting point, going to the MCarterbrown forum topic listed under CCM's thread and familiarizing yourself with what is out there already about their prototype. I will attach that link. There is quite a bit of information about the gun there but, unfortunately, there is also lots and lots of wasted posts which is one of the big reasons why I choose a forum like this to come to for help.
www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/c...le-thread.html
I know there will be a million more questions about gun availability, gun specs, prices, etc. Please be patient and remember this isn't CCM's main product line. Bill doesn't care about being the first new platform out there. He just wants to be the most accurate. For those of you mulling over whether this might be something you're interested in, know this. The gun won't be small and light. If CQB is what you like playing with then this probably won't interest you. If your looking for something with a semi-auto action, look to another platform.
I am hoping that I will have a prototype to play with by Supergame in Portland in August. That depends on how quickly they can build one for me and how much testing and shooting time I will have before I go. Keep your fingers crossed. As information becomes available that I am cleared to share I will post it here or on my Blog when I get it back up. I am working on that now.
Maybe we will finally a chance to know just how accurate a first-strike round can be.